Killing Stereo Types

I'm almost done with reporting about GA but so many folks need information right now.

Let's kill a stereotype here "Conservatives Never Compromise and liberals are lovie dovie folks who are never rigid."

Really?

So we have the so called conservatives Mark Achtemeir and Jack Haberer totally caving in on TPUP and then we get this kind of language out of the "More Light Crowd" - "Myth Number Five: We Can Accept Compromise..."

This is for my friends who think there are still options, that the fight in the PCorpUSA is still within reach. The implacable foe is not going to compromise with you. And exactly what are you really fighting for? The body of Christ is not equal to the PCorpUSA - it is made up of the universal Church. Ultimately you are fighting over the assets of the national corporation.

Two Synods will never pass, however, a large negotiated split will. Those of us who have gone before have made a beachhead it is yours to take advantage of it.

Delete the "C"

Oh I so wanted to stay out of the PCUSA semi-annual mudfest but now it is getting ugly(and personal).

A $2 million request for legal fees has made it out of committee. The stated goal is to maintain connectionalism by putting forward a great legal defense by the PCUSA. (see layman article "GA asked to approve 2 million to Battle New Wineskins and EPC"). Attach this to an attempt to smear the EPC and the NWAC and it is not looking good.

You know if I had a dollar for every time I have been told not to take my brother to court this past year.... Apparently that only applies to me and nobody else in the PCUSA. I mean the former local presbytery tried to prevent a group of American citizens from peacefully meeting and assembling (see reports on Woodland Presbyterian in New Orleans)! Of course we didn't take our brother to court but asked a court to get a corporation off our backs (and out of our pocket).

Now follow the bouncing ball - we have; on the record, a request to re-define the GAC as "General Assembly Mission Council" (see Layman article "Local Ignorance Blamed for Funding Decline")along with the GAC's attempt to take over the budget of the Presbyterian Foundation and its millions of "mission" dollars (breaking news this has been settled by the committee and both parities have agreed to form a mediating committee to settle these matters - however - I warn you watch the use of "mission" as an attempt to move money into institutional preservation. The end of this may simply be that it is a testimony as to how little trust the GAC has). Saying bascially that the GAC determines how mission will be defined and where those dollars will be spent. In that same speach it was explained that the local church just doesn't know what the denomination is doing - duh (message to GAC if you ever get honest about that you won't believe how empty the pews get)!

The unprecedented actions of Synods overturning the Presbytery's sole authority over property. Congregations being strung along for many months without decisions on dismissals.

All of this led by a team of Lawyers in Louisville (not that all lawyers are evil)!

We can only hope that reason will prevail on the plenary floor but if not then...

I think the gloves are about to come off and we are about to see the real face of the modern PCUSA - just delete the "C" call it "PUSA corp. " this will not be a church but a national corporation about to use every tool that corporate law has taught its leaders to squelch every bit of dissent. This isn't about maintaining connectionalism this is about power and control. A very small minority is manipulating and lying to an oblivious community and robbing their ancestors.

Whether the people pay up or not will no longer be a problem they will just take the money from the dead (again these attempts seem to be falling in comittee so only time will tell but the attempts are clearly being made).

If these committee recomendations pass just write:

Ichabod! ( a friend rightly points out that the bigger issue is the statement on Islam, Judaism, and Christianity all worshipping the same God)

Think, Think, Think

Like good ol' Pooh Bear I need some time to think....

While you're waiting you may want to digest this:

Louisville, always up to something

PS - for those that have asked. Things are going well. Still sorting things out with the Presbytery but as for our congregation all is well.

Break the Teeth of the Young Lions

As we watch the ongoing press of Louisville to stifle church individuality and faithfulness to God's calling here is another example of the NEO Catholicism of the PCUSA.

Reformed Pastor

Today a brother in the Lord called and offered up a prayer of protection:

Psalm 58:4-6 4 Their venom is like the venom of a snake, like that of a cobra that has stopped its ears, 5 that will not heed the tune of the charmer, however skillful the enchanter may be. 6 Break the teeth in their mouths, O God; tear out, O LORD, the fangs of the lions!

Churches Under Seige Part 2 - Congregational Limbo

For the background go to this story:

ST Paul's

Here's the tactic. Ignore the will of the congregation, ignore the will of the Presbytery, find one, two, or 10 people who are willing to call in the Synod. Form a Synod review (or if you willing to go nuclear form an Administrative Commission) and just stretch this thing out as long as you can.

What's the effect? Pastor bogged down waiting for calls from the Synod, ministry's bogged down waiting for leadership to have no looming issue hanging over their daily lives. Congregational anxiety leading to a sense of frustration.

Sure it's pure polity. It is the way things are done. But it is used not pastorally but as a weapon of a miniscule minority to get vindictive support in their cause. The Institution gets the advantage of holding on to its Essential Tenants funding their ongoing left wing extremeism.

The salient facts regarding the background of this story can be found at Presbyterian Troubles.

Here in the Presbytery of South Louisiana the Presbytery Exec is trying hard to hold things together. Here are his words.

I appreciate his very delicate situation. I am also learning that many of the Presbytery Leadership are starting to accept the AC and hope that it will be a help.

My opinion and not meant as an insult but an attempt at humor:

Keep Slapping lipstick on that pig!

A term used by many, generally in reference to someone who may be trying to make something or someone look appealing or attractive when it quite clearly will not work, or will only deceive the dumbest of people.

What else can they do? It is reality it must be accepted unless someone would want to file a remedial case with the GA regarding the matter (for instance the jumping over the normal polity process of working within the presbytery first, filing a remedial complain, then forming an administrative commission). I'm not constitutional expert but those who are tell me there are many options.

Welcome to Presby World

Well now it is official. We live in an alternate reality. To welcome you to that reality I've invited Bizarro Superman to greet you. Check out the news about Jane Spahr today at the Layman. (special thanks to Adiaphora for the updated photo)

I will try to interpret this into English for you. There cannot be a marriage between a woman and a woman therefore the "marriages" Jane Spahr performed were not marriages, therefore she is innocent of performing gay marriages.



Further presbyworld oddities can be descovered here.


Oh I am growing weaker... oh my head hurts, must get away from the presbynite... must stop reading at least for a few days!

Churches Under Seige Part 1

Working off of the title of Classical Presbyterian's title regarding the situation here in the Presbytery of South Louisiana I was studying up on events around the nation and came across the case regarding Bay Presbyterian Church. I want to give thanks to the website "Presbyterian Troubles" for this information. This is a case in point regarding the tactics of Louisville being deployed around the country - dithering - bogging churches down; making it expensive to leave; argueing about fine points; treating churches like tenants - not because it will stop those congregations from fleeing the denomination but to prevent any other congregation to be so foolish as to consider such a notion.

It is important to realize that at the local level few if any of the participants will know they are being manipulated for a national game plan. They are simply earnest, and faithful workers in a system who are so busy looking to the task at hand that they do not see the forrest for the trees.

But the question begs to be asked, "What form of Christianity makes it acceptable to hold congregations against their will?"

For those who are interested you can study this case in point the Presbytery of the Western Reserve makes available on their website of which this is a summary report.

The report is full of subjective understandings (as are mine own) and outright untruths. I want to look at a few of these:

Theology

Problem: Presbeytery of Western Reserve (PWR) states that the folks at Bay are citing confusing data on declaring the denomination's possition of theology and not taking the official possition as the clear possition of the denomination.

Answer: If my child says he will take out the trash but fails to do it he did not in fact take out the trash. Paper vs. Practice. Paper orthodoxy without practice is not real.

Problem: The voting numbers were 92% (nearly 1200) to 8% (just over 100) the PWR says this is only 63% of the congregation due to abscenses, therefore only 58% voting to leave? How is it that routinely GA votes are decided by 1% or less and are binding while having a 92% vote of those present was not?

Answer: People who don't show up don't generally care! The PWR is changing the rules to suit their needs. They just don't want to deal with the fact that by a 12-1 margin the folks at Bay are ready to leave.

Problem: PWR insists that the polity of the presbyterian church has always been that a trust clause exists.

Answer: Hawgwash -doesn't even bear a response I've dealt with it on this blog a dozen times the trust clause is 25 years old and most people didn't even realize what had happened. A party cannot be entered into a contract they are unaware of.

Problem: Show me the Money - I can't believe the request of a 7 digit settlement. on page three of the report they state that they want less than "30% of the value of Bay's assets" and that this will "allow them to stay healthy as they go forward". Really?

Answer: Get a grip. Bay offered $500,000 how much money does the presbytery need?

Problem: Deed Restriction after dismissal. Proportedly to keep them from leaving the EPC, but the key phrase is that they not "try to form an alliance with a denomination not in correspondence with the PCUSA".

Answer: Folks considering the desire of some to eliminate the correspondense with the EPC can you not see the incredible duplicity at work here? Whether human or spiritual who is to say?

Problem: Bay Presbyterian Church must change its name.

Answer: Apparently the PCUSA is the only true presbyterian church! Bay claims this is punitive I will say it is petty. I also believe all the other presbyterian denominations out there should be highly offended.

Problem: PWR has stated its willingness to go all the way on this matter. I'm trying to figure this out did the PWR give Bay a huge loan?

Answer: Where exactly does it claim that they have any real personal investment in the church? And even if they do (and they well might have some) where is their biblical text for going to the matt on this issue? As I see it since they are demanding 3 million dollars in settlement! Bay could spend about $1.5 million in defeating them and save $1 million.

Folks this is how your denomination is playing this game. Hope you are not proud.

Good News Bad News

You may have read the news from Redstone Presbytery with some interest (letter printed below my commentary) and hope this week. It is good news - a congregation dismissed from the PCUSA with property - Christians acting well - Christian. The meeting was run with a good bit of polity manuevering and was not completely a love fest as reported.

But sometimes you have to look to the details to find a little more truthiness.

The congregation voted for dismissal 173-10 at this point only 2 of the members are not joining the rest of the congregation in the EPC - that's 2 out of over 300 members!

So how in the world is the vote 48-41? If 4 people change their mind and vote against dismissal it fails.

The Tribune Democrat holds an in depth report from which I qoute:

This has happened in two other instances only, said Douglas Holben, executive presbyter at Redstone Presbytery, which includes all of Somerset and Cambria counties.The decision followed discussion, debate and prayers, he added.“We are moving ahead, even though it is not what we anticipated,” he said.

Not what "we" anticipated - in other words they had every intention (whoever they are - isn't the "they" supposed to be the presbytery not the exec?) of blocking a church that voted overwhelmingly to leave who had a so called "remnant" of 2 - they intended to go to the mat in keeping them from exercising any form of freedom of conscience as a community of faith.

Lord have mercy on any other church from Redstone that hopes to be released to the EPC. "They" will certainly not anticipate letting another church get away, because now at the very least the "for" vote lost 2 votes meaning the margin is razor thin.

Redstone Presbytery dismisses Congregation to EPC with Property and Blessing

By Chris Enoch, special to Presbyweb

(reprinted here with permission from the author)

Using secret ballots, the presbytery of Redstone voted Saturday (March 29) to approve the release of St. Paul's Presbyterian Church in Somerset, Pa from the Presbyterian Church (USA); allowing them to join the Evangelical Presbyterian Church. The vote allows St. Paul's to leave with all of its property, both real and personal, without paying any money to the Redstone Presbytery. The vote was 48-41 in favor of the request of St. Paul's session.Rev. Keith Fink, the pastor of St. Paul's, gave an impassioned plea for both Christian fairness and a reminder that the Body of Christ extends beyond the Presbyterian Church USA. He reminded those gathered that St. Paul's was "not leaving the Body of Christ, but just uniting with a part of the body that better expresses the biblical faith of the congregation." Members of St. Paul's session also spoke before the presbytery.Rev. Keith Conover, a member of the presbytery visitation team that had met with the session and the congregation, urged the presbytery to vote against the release, citing numerous reasons including his concern for a 'remnant' that might have wanted to remain in the PC(USA), although it appears that only 2 of the church's 332 members showed any such interest. The congregation had earlier voted by a margin of 173 to 10 to seek dismissal from Redstone Presbytery.Rev. Martin Ankrum, chair of the Committee on Ministry also urged a no vote on the proposal in a paper distributed by the presbytery to the commissioners gathered. In the paper, Rev. Ankrum wrote of the Somerset congregation, "What has troubled you so much that you would seek separation rather than unity in Christ?"The many troubles of the Presbyterian Church (USA) have been well documented in national and international press in recent years. They are centered around significant theological issues that were brought to a head by the controversial adopting of the "Peace Unity and Purity Report" by the 217th General Assembly in 2006.Several attempts to postpone the vote and amend the church's request to include the possibility of restitution to the presbytery were defeated.After the vote, in an amazing grace-filled moment, Rev. Fink and elders from St. Paul's Presbyterian Church had hands laid on them and prayers offered by a number of members of Redstone Presbytery.The Rev. Chris Enoch

Gathering what has happened to ya?

Many want to believe that TPUP hasn't changed anything well this is evidence of a different sort - not a legal case, not a disaffiliation, or dismissal but a one time central hub of the the renewal movement decimated:

http://www.layman.org/layman/news/2007-news/you-told-us-you-wanted.htm

Gathering X meant to be the showcase of the Presbyterian Coalition's "new plan" with attendance in the 90's.

It is heartbreaking but not unexpected. The Evangelical wing of the PCUSA was stunned after the passage of TPUP people cried out for a plan. And what we got was a very clearly detailed discription of what we had been doing all along.

I hurt for the Coalition. I hurt for all the Renewal Institutions. Will you embrace a new plan? Will you stop holding the New Wineskins Association at arms length?

An open letter

Dear Evangelical Friend,

Sometimes I regret being so often forced to present negative news. I have heard the mantra – “We never focus on the positive of the PCUSA”. I must warn us all that sometimes our desire to focus on the positive, or to focus on our local ministries functions like an opiate that allows us to be content about a denominational structure that is used to support things that are not only troubling but in fact ungodly. We are, if we are honest, hardly as offended as we should be.

We have now as a presbytery (Presbytery of South Louisiana) ordained and installed a number of Ministers of Word and Sacrament who cannot confess Jesus as the only way to salvation and there are present ordained ministers of word and sacrament who have rejected the atonement, who do not believe in Gods omniscience, who openly reject the Scripture as God’s infallible Word, who do not believe in evangelism, believe other religions are equal to our faith in Jesus Christ. Yet "our presbytery" is nationally considered to be “conservative”.

Am I being a little apocalyptic? Perhaps but I share with you a link. It is a link to the blog of a Presbyterian Minister in “good standing” in Holston Presbytery (Tennessee). His beliefs and his blog have been brought to the attention of the Committee on Ministry in that Presbytery. The reality is that this man is just an example of what many others in our denomination believe and not only do they believe it but they use their ordination to support and give credit to their unchristian beliefs as they spread their false teachings. We have lost the ability to discipline such people – at best – at worse - we endorse their false teachings by failing to be outraged. So the link is below:

WARNING GRAPHIC content – (although the picture found lower down on the page is a piece of classical art in its context on this page it is greatly offensive [I believe that is the intention]– if you do not want to see the image stop scrolling down the page when you reach the red letters)
http://shuckandjive.blogspot.com/2007/07/rapture-update-we-have-heard-from-jesus.html

The beliefs of the congregation he serves are publicly posted (in other words he is not acting alone):

http://www.1stpres-eliz.org/eightpoints2.html

He teaches false doctrine from the pulpit - a qoute from one of his sermons found on the church web site:

“Number 2: I believe the remains of the historical Jesus decayed like all
human remains decay.” – Rev John Shuck Holy Week sermon

These are not “quiet heresies” locked away in some distant liberal presbytery, far, far way but the writings of a man – openly published on the internet- a minister in “good standing” - from the heart of the South in Tennessee.

I also inform you that recently in Pittsburgh Presbytery and other presbyteries - local standards for ordination have been overturned by Synods. Additionally the section of Chapter 14 of the Book of Order that mandates the standard for the process for inquirers and candidates has been completely deleted. Mississippi Presbytery's property statement has been challenged by a review committee.

Around the country Presbyteries are installing processes for dealing with congregations that would consider withdrawing.

I commend to you a number of websites by which you can keep track of what is going on – some you have seen before but a few are new and I will place them first:

A list of all that is going on in one place (new) including a list of all property battles going on nationally and churches that have sought and are seeking dismissal/ disaffiliation
http://pcusalist.blogspot.com/

a Great blog (but currently on vacation)
http://classicalpresbyterian.blogspot.com/

news and thoughts
http://web.mac.com/davemoody/iWeb/blog137/blog%20137/blog%20137.html

different
http://grkndeacon.blogspot.com/

another from PSL
http://dogwagger.blogspot.com/

Layman – love em or hate em they still have the most news
http://www.layman.org/


Please stay abreast of the situation in our church. I keep you all in my thoughts and prayers. Yes there is much good going on out there but we must ask ourselves from time to time “what part does light have with darkness?”

Dr Bill

The Rorshach Tests are over. The results are in and Dr. Bill is about to present his "professional opinions".

Several of us have far too much time.

When you qoute lots of scripture liberals disapear.

And if you want to kill your hits - stop argueing with people!

I have one last question for many who have an unconsidered loyalty to the PCUSA institution:

"How's it working for you?" (that's rhetorical please don't write fourty reasons for loving the PCUSA)

Why the Rorshach tests? One I needed some time to "regroup", two I had noticed an alarming trend around the conservative, presbyterian bloggosphere - progressives inundating the discussion; I did not want to fall into the trap of becoming a mean spirited ,partisan, hack. So a little time off was necessary.

So today begins a multi-part series in which I will lay out one more time the existing state of the PCUSA and state possitively my hopes for the future. After that series I intend to return to discussing what I hope a future church institution to look like.

It all began with a cathartic, spiritual awakening at the last General Assembly. I was attending a PRMI worship service in which Parker Williamson was the primary speaker. What happened, as we worshipped a sense of impending doom came upon me, as Parker spoke prophetically the Lord spoke to my heart, "weep for my church" and I did. I'm not an unemotional man but neither am I given to open weeping - I wept for the next 30 minutes. We sang to the Lord, we prayed, and through it all I wept. This all occured prior to the vote on TPUP.

Then as I sat among the boths of the "Renewal Organizations" - myself working for the Presbyterian Forum - I became sadly aware that this was far too much like a political rally. That for two GA's running I saw the same people building networks, "fighting the good fight", and thoroughly loving the whole event. I went to a couple of the "nightime rallies" where the fight for the next day was planned - I began to realize the expense, the human emotion, and energy that was invested in trying to renew the PCUSA - and all we were doing was holding the theological line while the membership continued to bleed away at the rate of several hundred churches a year.

I cannot abandon theological integrity; so as long as this denomination is my home then I must fight this fight -but the whole thing is horribly wrong.

We really are; at least, at the very best, two very distinct branches of the Christian Faith - it is quite likely that we are several branches of the Christian tradition and several variations of Gnosticism, Unitarianism, Bahai, and other forms of pluralistic theism (the belief that all religions point to the same God).

There is a belief that the different branches of the Christian faith, called denominations, stand in the way of unity and that to merge these denominations will resolve our unity therfore to break up an institution like the PCUSA is schismatic. I have become convinced that just the opposite is true, that although denominations do prevent global unity, uniting them into larger groups will only make their divisions more palpable, it is in fact the denominations that create division, and false unity that create rancor, I believe; rather , that divisions into smaller branches and sects will limit the institutional power of denominations and in effect as they "decrease" "Christ will increase". We will be more effective in the mission field when we are not constantly trying to fit ourselves into molds in which we do not belong.

Mull on this a bit, let it settle into your mind and heart, and I will share more.

A note on comments - all comments are now under full moderation, although I would love a world in which I have infinite time to chase rabbits, I am finite. I will therefore not allow comments that lead to 20 doctrinal errors that must be chassed down for future conversation, this may upset some, it will likely shrink the readership of this blog; so be it.

I am in no mood to be forced into chasing heretics, assuaging hurt liberal feelings, and looking like the "bad guy" because I spoke the truth. I am by nature an optomist, an encourager and I have no desire to be forced into disciplining people who do not attend my church, do not accept my authority in their lives, that I have no relationship with - I don't think they want me to nor do I think I have any right to do so - I certainly do not have the time. I am interested in working with like minded folks who seek a more healthy body of Christ - a bayou where family members can swim around freely without being threatened.

I'm moving on.

Hope you will choose to follow along, hope you will comment - see you on the bayou!